tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post3847007047000334133..comments2023-11-05T04:01:05.199-05:00Comments on Phil Wilson's Blog: Fire the CampaignPhilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11540149196113374329noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-21598190971175805422008-10-19T17:59:00.000-04:002008-10-19T17:59:00.000-04:00Oh, my goodness--enough already. Just go vote--th...Oh, my goodness--enough already. Just go vote--the polls are open here in Nashville--go and get it over with. God is in control.judy thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447723817190708062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-29435247347502950112008-10-19T17:58:00.001-04:002008-10-19T17:58:00.001-04:00Oh, my goodness--enough already. Just go vote--th...Oh, my goodness--enough already. Just go vote--the polls are open here in Nashville--go and get it over with. God is in control.judy thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447723817190708062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-82872787361191729402008-10-19T17:58:00.000-04:002008-10-19T17:58:00.000-04:00Oh, my goodness--enough already. Just go vote--th...Oh, my goodness--enough already. Just go vote--the polls are open here in Nashville--go and get it over with. God is in control.judy thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447723817190708062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-89945076917029653412008-10-19T17:57:00.000-04:002008-10-19T17:57:00.000-04:00Oh, my goodness--enough already. Just go vote--th...Oh, my goodness--enough already. Just go vote--the polls are open here in Nashville--go and get it over with. God is in control.judy thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447723817190708062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-50581376862204981642008-10-17T12:03:00.000-04:002008-10-17T12:03:00.000-04:00Justin,I agree with what you're saying about faith...Justin,<BR/><BR/>I agree with what you're saying about faith not being a private matter and also that I should probably have been more explicit in what I meant by politics...the struggle to control the government and impose your will through the power of the government.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-66628407086374748782008-10-17T11:35:00.000-04:002008-10-17T11:35:00.000-04:00Gotcha. I thought it might just be semantics. I th...Gotcha. I thought it might just be semantics. I think though that we need to be clear when we discuss these things though. One reason being that when we say "jesus message wasn't political" or things of that nature, even with the definition that you meant, I think it encourages people to think about their faith as a private matter, that it just matters how I believe, not how I live and relate with people. And maybe make clearer that Jesus didn't support either party, and didn't support government, but supported us living as part of a Kingdom that exists in the here and now (in this world) but doesn't hold to the same premises of the kingdoms who claim that they rule us (of this world).mundiejchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17029540431840334762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-48909025857916293732008-10-17T11:25:00.000-04:002008-10-17T11:25:00.000-04:00Phil,I don't think that is the logical conclusion....Phil,<BR/><BR/>I don't think that is the logical conclusion...I think she is saying, "If you love Jesus, here is a reason to vote for Obama" which is different from saying "If you love Jesus, you must vote for Obama" (the equivalent of your extrapolation to "if you vote for McCain, you don't love Jesus"). And, by the way, "if you vote for Obama, you don't love Jesus" is what a lot people pretty much say explicitly without any irony, overstatement, exaggeration, or extrapolation.<BR/><BR/>Justin,<BR/><BR/>As you suspected, I think we're talking about different things. I'm referring to "politics" in the sense of definition 1 from Merriam-Webster, particularly 1c. You seem to be talking about definition 5:<BR/><BR/><I>1 a: the art or science of government b: the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy c: the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government<BR/><BR/>2: political actions, practices, or policies<BR/><BR/>3 a: political affairs or business ; especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government) b: political life especially as a principal activity or profession c: political activities characterized by artful and often dishonest practices<BR/><BR/>4: the political opinions or sympathies of a person<BR/><BR/>5 a: the total complex of relations between people living in society b: relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view "office politics" "ethnic politics"</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-1228379776016511342008-10-17T02:03:00.000-04:002008-10-17T02:03:00.000-04:00Jonathan,You said "that the message of the gospels...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>You said <BR/>"that the message of the gospels is NOT about politics"<BR/><BR/>I would respectfully, yet forcefully disagree with that statement.<BR/><BR/>Now, the message of the gospel may not be about western politics, or modern politics, or better yet, violent politics. But it is politics. It is about a different way of living, organizing, and being, which is politics.<BR/><BR/>Its just that our political ethic is one that doesn't make sense to a world that doesn't know Christ. "For the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved (btw, i love the verb tense there) it is the power of God" makes so much more sense in this light. Our rejection of the methods of the world to create justice, enforce peace, to provide for ourselves and families, make 0 sense to those who haven't believed the message of Jesus. It doesn't make sense to respond non violently to violence and oppression. It doesn't make sense to give to those in need, and trust that God will provide. It doesn't make sense to seek justice through being a servant, rather than obtaining power (or making sure the "right" person is in power). But that is the way to which we've been called... <BR/><BR/>It may just be semantics that I'm having issue with here, but this is what came to mind when I read that.mundiejchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17029540431840334762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-70581268151706871952008-10-16T23:56:00.000-04:002008-10-16T23:56:00.000-04:00Jon, I took the "if you love Jesus, you'll vote fo...Jon, I took the "if you love Jesus, you'll vote for Obama," as 1) ironically overstating it, but 2) taking that to the logical extreme, of if you vote for McCain you don't love Jesus. It seemed a natural conclusion.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11540149196113374329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-76301369411177344972008-10-16T23:51:00.000-04:002008-10-16T23:51:00.000-04:00Phil,It says "...there's something un-Christian ab...Phil,<BR/><BR/>It says "...there's something un-Christian about people who vote for McCain"? I missed that part.<BR/><BR/>Suzie, <BR/><BR/>I think you missed Christine's point. I think if you can get past the provocative nature of the "If you love Jesus, vote for..." language and look closely at what she is saying, you'll see that Christine's message is something very similar to what you wrote on your blog...that the message of the gospels is NOT about politics...and not about Christians wielding political power in a cultural war...but that is what Christianity has come to mean to many due to the melding of the religious/political right...and Christine's plea seems to me to be for that to change.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-12198754798211727502008-10-16T23:34:00.000-04:002008-10-16T23:34:00.000-04:00Phil, Thanks for responding. I had a different rea...Phil,<BR/> Thanks for responding. I had a different reaction which I wrote about on my blog, but wanted to understand other viewpoints.Suziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094311274463856005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-7231374932652558462008-10-16T23:17:00.000-04:002008-10-16T23:17:00.000-04:00Suzie, as you might imagine, I don't agree complet...Suzie, as you might imagine, I don't agree completely with the article. I don't think there's something un-Christian about people who vote for McCain. I do think the writer of the article makes a good point about showing people that not every Christian votes blindly for the Republicans.<BR/><BR/>However, the most striking paragraph to me was this one: "Because if McCain wins this election, the Religious Right's hold on the Republican Party is going to be even stronger. In forcing McCain to choose Sarah Palin as his nominee, evangelical power brokers were able to do what all the torturers in Vietnam couldn't. They were able to convince McCain to put his own self interest above the best interests of his country. If McCain wins, the Religious Right and Sarah Palin will take the credit."<BR/><BR/>That's what I was talking about before with McCain 2000 vs. McCain 2008. McCain 2000 called people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson "agents of intolerance;" in 2006 he gave the commencement address at Falwell's Liberty University. To me, that's pandering to the Religious Right, that he'd never done before.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11540149196113374329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-17341933224860478012008-10-16T22:42:00.000-04:002008-10-16T22:42:00.000-04:00Personally, I like it because it expresses in a cl...Personally, I like it because it expresses in a clever way something that I believe to be true: the association of the religious right with the political far right is a liability in accomplishing the mission of the church among about half of the population.<BR/><BR/>I think there is a real danger for the stink of politics to mask the beautiful aroma of the gospel. The way people like Dobson wield political power is so distasteful. And the culture war? That's the way to engage outsiders? There's a reason why <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/They-Like-Jesus-but-Church/dp/0310245907/" REL="nofollow">they like Jesus but not the church</A>.<BR/><BR/>I don't think the answer is for the religious left to become the new religious right in the political realm, but I think it would be very healthy for it to be more obvious that Christianity and Republicanism are not synonymous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-26865514676931647772008-10-16T20:15:00.000-04:002008-10-16T20:15:00.000-04:00I really don't have much more to add to the discus...I really don't have much more to add to the discussion, but I want to see you hit the 50 mark for comments, so I'm leaving this one :)<BR/><BR/>By the way, I read that article, "If you love Jesus, vote for Obama" in the posts I like section. Would you post about what you like about it? I was just curious.Suziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094311274463856005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-91568581468419038262008-10-16T16:43:00.000-04:002008-10-16T16:43:00.000-04:00Brandon Scott: Thank YOU!Brandon Scott: Thank YOU!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-28623563192840218342008-10-15T17:33:00.000-04:002008-10-15T17:33:00.000-04:00Honestly, if Christians treat each otherlike this ...Honestly, if Christians treat each otherlike this and can't have respectable discussions about politics without getting ugly, why are we surprised that the "world" gets violent over these issues. I know we all feel convicted about these issues but these dumb posts with name calling and what i call anonymous hit and run bloggers just wears me out. And some of you go around posting comments like that on lots of other blogs?? Where do you find the emotional energy to continue to be so negative?Brandon Scott Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03945502638721214409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-35426257402824867282008-10-15T17:19:00.000-04:002008-10-15T17:19:00.000-04:00Nope, sorry "Belinda's new troll" - it's not me. ...Nope, sorry "Belinda's new troll" - it's not me. Could it be someone else thinks similarly? You must be afraid to call me out using your real name so you think you're really cute doing it this way? Grow up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-5689998854824195352008-10-15T16:17:00.000-04:002008-10-15T16:17:00.000-04:00Jonathan,That is pretty much in line with my think...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>That is pretty much in line with my thinking, if we're going to have a government, it should be there to keep order. We just differ on what is needed for that. I think protecting the environment for free exchange of goods, free speech, free people, should be the goals.<BR/><BR/>Only problem with that is a philosophical one, even if we are "free" are we really?mundiejchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17029540431840334762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-9606628795204492192008-10-15T10:16:00.000-04:002008-10-15T10:16:00.000-04:00Justin,About principles (presumably Biblical?) for...Justin,<BR/><BR/>About principles (presumably Biblical?) for the government to enforce order...I'm one who wants my government's actions/laws to be based on something more universal than the teachings/holy texts of any one religion, so personally I wouldn't look for Biblical justification for a government taking reasonable measures to foster order...but if I did, I guess it would be Romans 13.<BR/><BR/>Chris,<BR/><BR/>Like Brandon Scott said, I'm not hankering to live in a communist country...capitalism seems like the more successful system to me too...but I'm saying that doesn't mean there aren't good reasons to also have some policies that may go against capitalistic principles<BR/><BR/>Suzie,<BR/><BR/>That's when I was there too. Think long haired hippy:<BR/>http://jonmower.com/blast-past-summer-1994Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-49182657202257157032008-10-15T08:37:00.000-04:002008-10-15T08:37:00.000-04:00Chris...I don't think anyone here is wanting a com...Chris...I don't think anyone here is wanting a communist nation. It appears that because you can't have discussion over the issues in a rational manner you resort to extremes. And...that email address is STILL brandon@garymusick.comBrandon Scott Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03945502638721214409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-8794082061567610292008-10-15T07:10:00.000-04:002008-10-15T07:10:00.000-04:00If you think it's such a high standard, feel free ...If you think it's such a high standard, feel free to go live in a communist country. The truth is, it has failed every time it has been tried. The early colonies in America tried it and they didn't prosper until they ditched the concept. Then there was the Soviet Union...Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10713185419474601750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-87677949445265312732008-10-14T23:38:00.000-04:002008-10-14T23:38:00.000-04:00Dr. Burton Coffman had this to say in his Commenta...Dr. Burton Coffman had this to say in his Commentary of Acts, page 62.<BR/><BR/>"There were certain unique conditions in the NT situation that are not matched in modern times, anywhere at anytime. Furthermore, it must be remembered that the NT experiment lasted but a short while, was not undertaken upon the basis of any command of Christ or the apostles, and that there was never any teaching whatever set up with a view for perpetuating what is in view here. Most importantly of all, the experiment failed, human nature proving then, as it ever has, an insurmountable obstacle forbidding the success of any such society."<BR/><BR/>Dr. Kenneth Hunter, an outstanding economist of Washington D.C. and former professor of economics in American University, said:<BR/><BR/>"The so-called communism in Acts, to the extent it might be called that, was a communism of distribution, not of production. The means of production were still owned and retained by the individual. In my opinion, there is no fallacy of modern collectivism that has deceived more people than this glib catch-phrase, "from each according to his ability; to each according to his need." The fallacy is that in the collectivist society, the individual has absolutely nothing whatever to say either about his ability or his need. All vital decisions are made for him by the Party through the endless inefficiency and red tape of its infinite bureaucracy."Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10713185419474601750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-71673783157203565242008-10-14T22:54:00.000-04:002008-10-14T22:54:00.000-04:00Phil, is this comment log getting as long as the o...Phil, is this comment log getting as long as the ones on instrumental music? You'd know you've hit a hot topic if it has.<BR/><BR/>I'm curious about the answer to Justin's question as well. I think many, not all, Republicans are misled to think that their party will lead our government/nation to follow Christian principles. As Jon correctly points out, there are many key principles from the Way of Jesus that are overlooked. However, I also think those that vote Democrat that think that party will do a better job of instilling Christian principles into our nation/government because it is more in line with the plight of the poor, social justice, racial reconciliation, etc. are deceiving themselves - the bottom line is we are trusting the government to do kingdom business. If I want to be the hands and feet of Jesus, I want to do it in the community of believers, and not let the government inefficiently and wastefully do it while I let my tax dollars walk away.<BR/><BR/>I equate it to my recent experience at work...it's United Way time, and I think United Way is a good organization that helps many people. However, to a person, everyone I talked to actually resented giving because they were required to it (it was the "give what you can but we must get 100% participation" speech from our CEO). Better for me to be actively involved than to think I can just make my donation/pay my taxes and let someone else take care of it.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00594387404856908452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-16885418824973733382008-10-14T22:32:00.000-04:002008-10-14T22:32:00.000-04:00I really like Jon's point..."and isn't it curious ...I really like Jon's point...<BR/><BR/>"and isn't it curious that those who are keen on having our laws explicitly based on Christian principles (as opposed to a more common/universal standard) are so selective about which of those Christian principles to mandate and which to keep voluntary? Some of the one's I mentioned above are apparently best kept voluntary but others...not so much."<BR/><BR/>I have been feeling the exact same way.Brandon Scott Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03945502638721214409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6821288.post-83878180890769007082008-10-14T22:25:00.000-04:002008-10-14T22:25:00.000-04:00Nope. Pretty sure that's her. Why? Because it's...Nope. Pretty sure that's her. Why? Because it's the same thing she says everywhere.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com